PDGA Discussion Board > General Disc Golf Topics > Equipment > Collecting Discs
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gippy
Mar 11 2010, 01:57 PM
I am rather new to collecting golf discs, so this thread has been immensely helpful.
One disc I do have is a Valkyrie X. I would love to find out more about the disc and how it plays into the whole CE thing. Rather than the stock CE stamp, it has the "INNOVA" bar stamp with "Champion Discs" written through the bar stamp.
I have also seen Special Edition Valkyries that look similar to mine, but "Special Edition" is written through the bar stamp rather than "Champion Discs".
Not sure what the real difference is between my Valkyrie X and a SE Valkyrie.
I am curious to know if this disc was run sometime between the 1st and last runs of the CE Valk? Is this disc considered a CE Valk? Any ideas of its worth in mint condition?
Email MArk at discgolfvalues.com he'd give some insight to this
flynvegas
Mar 11 2010, 02:00 PM
Looking for DGA Kitty Hawks & #7 Night Flyer, Destiny Rock N Roller and WhizBack.
Webslinger
Mar 11 2010, 02:02 PM
Checked out DGV and found that bit of information. Thanks for the suggestion and I will e-mail Mark.
mf100forever
Mar 12 2010, 11:53 AM
I am rather new to collecting golf discs, so this thread has been immensely helpful.
One disc I do have is a Valkyrie X. I would love to find out more about the disc and how it plays into the whole CE thing. Rather than the stock CE stamp, it has the "INNOVA" bar stamp with "Champion Discs" written through the bar stamp.
I have also seen Special Edition Valkyries that look similar to mine, but "Special Edition" is written through the bar stamp rather than "Champion Discs".
Not sure what the real difference is between my Valkyrie X and a SE Valkyrie.
I am curious to know if this disc was run sometime between the 1st and last runs of the CE Valk? Is this disc considered a CE Valk? Any ideas of its worth in mint condition?
Bought one from Mark Molnar, I thought it was a CE Viking, but it is not, it is probably 3rd run CE Valks.
dehaas
Mar 12 2010, 01:32 PM
I traded for a viking that is marked VG on the bottom, from the way I understand valkyries were labeled VK for a while, then changed to VL when the viking came out, and the viking became VK. The disc is yellow with a stock stamp, is this more than likely just a mis-label, or maybe just a very early viking, while the valkyries were still labeled as VK?
flynvegas
Mar 12 2010, 01:37 PM
Does your Viking have the Zipper sound when you run your fingers across the top? That would be a very early Viking.
dehaas
Mar 12 2010, 05:13 PM
You mean the little record grooves like what was mentioned previously with another disc? I'll have to take a look at it when I get home from work tonight.
wheresdave
Mar 12 2010, 06:10 PM
on ebay now a limited First Run MOJO and pre Test Model
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120542533788&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
lux4prez
Mar 12 2010, 08:46 PM
Disclaimer: This post is more of a question than fact. It is, however, based on personal experience with CE Teebirds in various runs.
Lately CE Teebirds have been popping up that seem to vary from what I saw come out over the years. Here is a chronological order (as best I can remember) of what I saw:
1st Run: Mostly red TL version non-see thru.
2nd Run: Mostly neon yellow TL version non-see thru.
2 1/2 Run: Mythical rare run with double ringed nipple on top. Mostly white and blue but could be other colors non-see thru. Lip was closer to a true T than TL. Plastic was awesome like 1st and 2nd runs.
3rd Run: Plastic getting weaker and more see thru than 2nd run. TL version various colors but predominantly yellow.
4th Run: Plastic darn near clear and weaker than the 3rd run. TL version
5th Run: Still good plastic, but nowhere near as good as 1st and 2nd run and comparable to 3rd run. First and only true T mold in CE with a tell-tale dimple of missing plastic on top the size of a pencil eraser in the center.
6th Run: Has the swoosh stamp and is predecessor to what is now clear Champion plastic. TL mold.
I know there was a small run of T mold good CE birds that the Winnie Crew and Cam were given to help with road costs. They are extremely rare.
I guess my question is: did I skip a run somewhere? Also, the 2 1/2 run was a guess based on the time frame.
Just to add to this: the small run of T mold good CE birds was from around the 2nd or 3rd run in 2001 or so. This disc was basically it's own run done specifically for helping touring pros with road costs and was never a true production run. I'm guessing there were tops 500 made, probably less. These are crazy rare for those looking to collect.
Figuring out old teebirds is a hard thing to do unless you were there. If anyone needs help with KC runs, let me know. KC Teebirds are almost as complicated as the CE runs.
Now, can anyone tell me how to post pictures? I have some discs that I would like to show and get help identifying. One in particular has had me baffled for years. PM me, and thanks in advance.
atreau3
Mar 13 2010, 12:02 PM
Does anyone know how rare CE QMS/ CE QJLS stamped with the Zone Driven stamps are?
I've got a few, most are blueberry ce plastic, one is 3rd run orange/pink, and one is 2nd Run ce yellow. All stamped with Zone Driven.
Another question. I usually adhere to the labeling theory of 1st Run CE, red and blue, in that the labels/writing looks similar. I have a 1st Run Blueberry CE leopard that is labeled with the exact size/handwriting of my 1st Run Red Ce TL. Conversely, I've got another 1st Run Red CE TL that is labeled T and is a different size/font than my other 1st Run Red CE Tl's. The plastic is IDENTICAL, however. In that vein, I have a Blueberry CE TL that looks like 1st Run blue, but the writing is similar to that "anomaly" labeled 1st Run CE TL. The writing as a matter of fact is identical, weight and font.
Just curious. I know for a fact the CE TL is a first run, but curious about the blue one.
20460chase
Mar 13 2010, 01:23 PM
I think its a third or fourth depending on Teebirds, but I could be wrong. I have had some odd colored ones almost identical to the 1st Runs, still have a sick green one I got from the guy selling all the green discs. I have a Leopard form the same period. I was once told that it was a 1st Run, as was some of the purples I have. I was told they were 1st run color blends, but was never positive. Rick posted that RhynoBoys B.B. Leopard was a 2nd run, again, something I had never heard before.
Ive been waiting for us to tackle Leopards on here, so lets go.
lux4prez
Mar 13 2010, 07:42 PM
Does anyone know how rare CE QMS/ CE QJLS stamped with the Zone Driven stamps are?
The CE QJLS is one of the most overlooked gems imho. It is basically a 2nd run taffy CE TL. Incredible discs and sturdy plastic. With the ZD stamp, even better. You should do well with your auction on that. I have a few of the first runs (not with the uber cool ZD stamp)of those and they feel great. I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but Zone Driven stamps on early run CE discs should increase values due to that being the stamp that was used on protos quite often. Just an observation. Good luck Artreau.
lux4prez
Mar 13 2010, 08:54 PM
Is there a way to post pictures without having to pay photo bucket?
thediscinmusician
Mar 13 2010, 09:23 PM
When you hit "post reply" if you keep scrolling down past the box we all type in the 2nd option says "manage attachments/attach files" that's how you upload pics! Hope that helps!
lux4prez
Mar 13 2010, 11:04 PM
C:\Documents and Settings\Greg.CAMPBELL\My Documents\Gregs Stuff\2006_12_15
lux4prez
Mar 13 2010, 11:27 PM
Does anyone know what this is? When I bought these around 1999, I was told they were Cheetah 2 protos. Compared with 8x Cheetahs and Gazelles from that era, these differ. The lip is stouter and the profile is lower. This is made out of 8-10X slick KC plastic. Any ideas?
P>S>- thanks for the posting help discin! Hope you're digging the teebirds!
atreau3
Mar 14 2010, 12:26 AM
That looks like my Cheetah 2 that I just received. Mine was stamped with the innova small circle /star stamp.
Those were a very limited run, from what I can remember.
atreau3
Mar 14 2010, 12:35 AM
Question...
I mentioned a while back that I received a group of proto 8x Rocs.
I have three of these, all with the flat black stamp that have an INNOVA Bar BACK STAMP.
Has anyone seen these before?
atreau3
Mar 14 2010, 12:44 AM
Here is the back stamp...
Any info is appreciated.
flynvegas
Mar 14 2010, 11:28 AM
Does anyone know what this is? When I bought these around 1999, I was told they were Cheetah 2 protos. Compared with 8x Cheetahs and Gazelles from that era, these differ. The lip is stouter and the profile is lower. This is made out of 8-10X slick KC plastic. Any ideas?
P>S>- thanks for the posting help discin! Hope you're digging the teebirds!
'99 sounds right, mine came with the first batch of 9X Firebird's. They are Cheetah ll proto's.
lux4prez
Mar 14 2010, 05:37 PM
Funny, I went to the "Ask Dave Dunipace" thread awhile back and he said he never heard of them. Still, I'm sticking with Cheetah II. Thanks guys.
Breeze
Mar 14 2010, 06:50 PM
Here is the back stamp...
Any info is appreciated.
You can call Innova East and ask them. Innova West dose not have the capability to bottom stamps. It had to have come from Innova east.
gippy
Mar 14 2010, 07:06 PM
Here is the back stamp...
Any info is appreciated.
Id have to say those are pretty Rare never seen them before.
lux4prez
Mar 14 2010, 07:27 PM
I remember when that bottom stamp came out. It was the first bottom stamp. I don't recall it being on anything other than regular DX Rocs. though. That's not to say that you may have a rare bird.
atreau3
Mar 14 2010, 09:24 PM
There will be one listed on ebay tonight...7pm pst or 10 pm est
20460chase
Mar 14 2010, 10:04 PM
Id say they are rare, but am not sure they are proto 8x though. Id think more they are bottom stamped DX that someone stamped with the barstamp logo, probably for a team member. Id want to know before I sold any.
20460chase
Mar 14 2010, 10:12 PM
I cant believe what kind of damage that ZD Valk is doing.....but even more unreal is that QMS. Are you sh*tting me?
atreau3
Mar 14 2010, 10:44 PM
Id say they are rare, but am not sure they are proto 8x though. Id think more they are bottom stamped DX that someone stamped with the barstamp logo, probably for a team member. Id want to know before I sold any.
I originally thought that might be a possibility, but the plastic is identical to the other 16 that I have. Not saying the # that I received to brag, just to show that I can't see or feel the difference.
Out of the 17 I got, 3 have the circle 8x stamp, 3 have the bottom stamp and proto top stamp, and 11 have the proto top stamp.
If I had to guess, I think it might be the opposite. They are true proto 8x, but the bottom stamp was for a team member.
I'll call innova east tomorrow.
E
1967
Mar 14 2010, 11:23 PM
Wow thats crazy money for a first run ce thats not a star stamp and as much as the first ce Teebird clear. Way to go.
lux4prez
Mar 14 2010, 11:44 PM
What did the QMS get? I wasn't watching that one.
flynvegas
Mar 14 2010, 11:46 PM
$157+
flynvegas
Mar 14 2010, 11:49 PM
A lot of nice discs up for auction tonight. Was fun to watch. I picked up a new Kitty Hawk for a decent price.
flynvegas
Mar 14 2010, 11:52 PM
I originally thought that might be a possibility, but the plastic is identical to the other 16 that I have. Not saying the # that I received to brag, just to show that I can't see or feel the difference.
Out of the 17 I got, 3 have the circle 8x stamp, 3 have the bottom stamp and proto top stamp, and 11 have the proto top stamp.
If I had to guess, I think it might be the opposite. They are true proto 8x, but the bottom stamp was for a team member.
I'll call innova east tomorrow.
E
I've got a bid on it, let us know what you find out.
atreau3
Mar 14 2010, 11:56 PM
Will do!
I've got a naked Ce Valk I need to ask about as well...
lionofjudah
Mar 15 2010, 02:38 AM
I was wondering about a blank CE QMS that I have. It is factory dyed. Any ideas on worth?
20460chase
Mar 15 2010, 11:58 AM
Wow thats crazy money for a first run ce thats not a star stamp and as much as the first ce Teebird clear. Way to go.
Yeah, nuts!
I think the next Proto CE Teebird will double it. I dont think people understood how rare the Teebird was when it went up last time, and I can only think of the one that Moose got as ever being on Ebay.
20460chase
Mar 15 2010, 11:59 AM
I was wondering about a blank CE QMS that I have. It is factory dyed. Any ideas on worth?
I dont know, but I have a few as well. I dont think they are anywhere near that one though. I was content with their worth being around 30-40$, now I may put another $20 on there, but wouldnt double it.
20460chase
Mar 15 2010, 01:36 PM
Who knows, could be this one
20460chase
Mar 15 2010, 01:39 PM
When you hit "post reply" if you keep scrolling down past the box we all type in the 2nd option says "manage attachments/attach files" that's how you upload pics! Hope that helps!
Dude. This one post just made my life so much easier. Thank You.
20460chase
Mar 15 2010, 01:56 PM
Other stuff I have been asked to post and was computer stupid:
Nevermind. Still stupid I guess.
atreau3
Mar 15 2010, 07:06 PM
Will do!
I've got a naked Ce Valk I need to ask about as well...
No word back from Jeb or Zeb? Left a message for him this morning...
flynvegas
Mar 16 2010, 11:08 AM
Looking for a yellow 2002 USDGC Roc, have Little Wing to trade.
atreau3
Mar 16 2010, 04:11 PM
Still no word from Zeb. Day two and second call...
atreau3
Mar 17 2010, 10:42 AM
Talked to Zeb today... He's looking into who might have stamped them...they're definitely rare. I hope to hear back from him soon, but he said there were only two people stamping back then... He was one of them (and it wasn't him).
flynvegas
Mar 17 2010, 01:22 PM
Couple of nice Eagle's going off this morning on eBay. Only 1000 of those blue Eagle's made.
atreau3
Mar 17 2010, 09:00 PM
So, I did it again... placed another order.
Anyone know the value of a San Marino Glow Football Stamped Roc, 177?
Also an Orange Star Stamped Aviar 173 with black stamp, and a Throw in the dark Aviar 170, all mint?
gippy
Mar 18 2010, 09:01 AM
So, I did it again... placed another order.
Anyone know the value of a San Marino Glow Football Stamped Roc, 177?
Also an Orange Star Stamped Aviar 173 with black stamp, and a Throw in the dark Aviar 170, all mint?
Not sure on Value but the Sannys of yesteryear are gaining in value. Ive only seen the Aviar a few times and pretty sure they grab about the same as a 10X KC Pictures?
flynvegas
Mar 18 2010, 10:39 AM
$80 to $100 on the Roc. $50 to $80 on the Aviars.
RhynoBoy
Mar 19 2010, 06:59 PM
Obviously this seller is well known.
Anybody know the story on this disc?
http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-MINT-1ST-RUN-BLUE-CE-VALKYRIE-GOLF-DISC_W0QQitemZ360243825944QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item53e0348d18#ht_971wt_1033
gippy
Mar 19 2010, 07:04 PM
I just picked up 3 QJLS 1st Runs they PDGA APPOVED on them any Idea the Value on these New? The ones I got are used but like 9/10 on 2 and 8/10 on the other.
atreau3
Mar 19 2010, 08:05 PM
I've seen QJLS's that say "test run of 2000" sell for around $35-40 on the high side new and heavy...
used ones sell for around $20 in great shape.
20460chase
Mar 19 2010, 08:43 PM
Obviously this seller is well known.
Anybody know the story on this disc?
http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-MINT-1ST-RUN-BLUE-CE-VALKYRIE-GOLF-DISC_W0QQitemZ360243825944QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item53e0348d18#ht_971wt_1033
Check a few pages back.
gippy
Mar 19 2010, 08:50 PM
I've seen QJLS's that say "test run of 2000" sell for around $35-40 on the high side new and heavy...
used ones sell for around $20 in great shape.
Well I may just have to throw em they fly like a Broke in Teebird and the Yellow one feels and looks just like 2nd run CE Plastic
RhynoBoy
Mar 19 2010, 09:07 PM
Check a few pages back.
Even though I'd read this, I didn't realize it was the same disc. Thanks.
20460chase
Mar 21 2010, 11:40 AM
Well I may just have to throw em they fly like a Broke in Teebird and the Yellow one feels and looks just like 2nd run CE Plastic
Thats probably what it is.
20460chase
Mar 22 2010, 03:47 PM
Fun!
CE Teebird with DX Roc stamp
Ice Whippet X out
prospect
Mar 22 2010, 04:12 PM
That Teebird is SICK. :eek: Wanna trade something for it? :D
Furthur
Mar 22 2010, 06:41 PM
Ya, that Teebird is sweet. Stable Midrange Roc stamp too!
20460chase
Mar 22 2010, 07:28 PM
Yeah I got that and this CE FX from Mitch McMurty (?) several years ago. He used to walk in and grab stock and stamp them with whatever stamp they were running. This Leopard one didnt fully come out:
lux4prez
Mar 22 2010, 10:13 PM
Speaking of misprints and just general cool discs:
The first is a Steilacom 174g CE Aviar
2nd is a 175g CE FX with DX stamp formally owned by Al"Sugar" Schack. Unthrown
3rd is an original CE Q-mega 175g-same as first run CE Aviar.
All unthrown and museum quality.
20460chase
Mar 25 2010, 12:14 PM
Get some life going.
Red on Red 1st Run TL.
Here's a freshy original Night Shift Orc I just picked up from atreau3. its actually teal with a royal blue stamp. my camera sucks
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/dgdave/IMAG0108.jpg
flynvegas
Mar 25 2010, 02:42 PM
And you got it for a great price.
atreau3
Mar 25 2010, 02:50 PM
;). That was a good deal!
dgdave
Mar 25 2010, 03:31 PM
I feel a bit guilty for hoe much I paid for it.
20460chase
Mar 25 2010, 04:15 PM
I wanted that but wasnt around the computer. What did it go for?
dgdave
Mar 25 2010, 04:47 PM
29 and some change.
20460chase
Mar 25 2010, 05:27 PM
Thats horrible. Good deal for you though!
channelz
Mar 25 2010, 06:23 PM
Just added 8 Champion Edition discs to my store inventory...
atreau3
Mar 25 2010, 06:55 PM
Take the good with the bad...
Like I said, I've got the twin 9.5/10 used. with my name on it...
Anyone have a 1st RUN CE Leopard with rainbow stamp?
atreau3
Mar 28 2010, 09:02 PM
Really???
http://cgi.ebay.com/First-Run-GOLD-Champion-Edition-Valkyrie-Golf-Disc_W0QQitemZ260577050642QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item3cab9a4012
20460chase
Mar 28 2010, 10:34 PM
Yeah, you beat me to that link post. I was pretty eager to hear about that as well.
RhynoBoy
Mar 28 2010, 11:28 PM
That'd be interesting to see.
Furthur
Mar 29 2010, 03:17 PM
Mark must be unloading stuff, because he's got 11x KC Teebirds and X-Out Augusta Wraiths on DGV now.
rhett
Mar 29 2010, 10:50 PM
Yeah I got that and this CE FX from Mitch McMurty (?) several years ago. He used to walk in and grab stock and stamp them with whatever stamp they were running.
McMurtry. My favorite disc that I ever saw him with was a (seemingly) first run red CE Valkyrie with a freaking Panther stamp. It was great. I wanted one soooooo bad. :)
lux4prez
Mar 29 2010, 11:23 PM
McMurtry. My favorite disc that I ever saw him with was a (seemingly) first run red CE Valkyrie with a freaking Panther stamp. It was great. I wanted one soooooo bad. :)
There's been a CE Firebird like that on sale forever on Ebay.
dgdave
Mar 30 2010, 10:05 AM
That's Mitch's as well. I think he has 2 of them
Dana
Mar 30 2010, 02:15 PM
Any idea what run an 01 Ice Bowl Stamped Red CE TL is? How about its worth?
Thanks.
lux4prez
Mar 30 2010, 11:58 PM
I may have this wrong, but there is a mythical 3 ring pre-KC Roc that was called something like the 5000 or 5200? It was yellow and I've seen two of them locally owned. Rick, do you have any pictures of this one?
flynvegas
Mar 31 2010, 12:07 AM
The 2500 was more like the large diameter Hammer. I have 2 of them,blank pale yellow.
PBeagle
Mar 31 2010, 01:11 AM
Mark must be unloading stuff, because he's got 11x KC Teebirds and X-Out Augusta Wraiths on DGV now.
I would LOVE to get my hands on one of the X-Out Augustas.... Were can i find them???
kwibby1
Mar 31 2010, 04:07 AM
I would LOVE to get my hands on one of the X-Out Augustas.... Were can i find them???
https://www.discgolfvalues.com/home.htm
flynvegas
Mar 31 2010, 11:15 AM
Just ordered from DGV some of those 11x TeeBird's.
lux4prez
Mar 31 2010, 11:28 AM
I thought those were out of stock?
20460chase
Mar 31 2010, 11:41 AM
They are.....or are supposed to be. I dont understand those discs. Thats all I am saying. I have discs that were run pre-star and they are nothing like those being sold, nor was the 11x circle stamp still in production at the time the star plastic was concieved as a new brand.
flynvegas
Mar 31 2010, 11:48 AM
I thought those were out of stock?
I ordered 2 of them yesterday with 2 11x Firebird's. Now the TB are listed Out of Stock.
lux4prez
Mar 31 2010, 07:15 PM
I got one of the dark blue ones. Someone has one on Ebay and says it's a special blend. Aside from the unusual color, it just looks like sturdy Champion plastic. I haven't thrown it
and probably won't need to for a while. My teal green 11x that went in the bag when they first came out is still serving me fine. Are you saying they fly different? I only thought it was suspect due to never having seen that color. Mark is a good source, so I wouldn't doubt it's authenticity.
Webslinger
Mar 31 2010, 08:17 PM
I got one of the dark blue ones. Someone has one on Ebay and says it's a special blend. Aside from the unusual color, it just looks like sturdy Champion plastic. I haven't thrown it
and probably won't need to for a while.
I saw that on ebay as well and he's getting some good response on his auction. I was curious about his description of the disc being a "special blend". E-mailed him about it and asked. He says the marking underneath the disc is 'STB' for special blend, however he also says the 'S' was removed in order for these discs to be sold. He can still see the 'S' though if he angles it just right in the light.
I ordered two 11x KC Pro Teebirds - blue from DGV as well. Checked them this morning and sure enough, if you shine a flashlight just right on the underside of the disc, you can see there was an 'S' there.
lux4prez
Mar 31 2010, 08:34 PM
So, are these fakes?
atreau3
Mar 31 2010, 08:54 PM
So, I actually have some insight...
but from what I've been asked "not" to say....
I can say that these look and feel similar to a combination of the early Star Teebird and the 11x clear dense Champion.
In other words, they feel like my Special blend Roadrunner.
Looks like they were re-stamped.
atreau3
Mar 31 2010, 08:57 PM
Chase,
weren't the "Special" 12X KC Teebirds you have labeled S-TB?
My money is that they're that plastic with the 11x Stamp.
Either way, that plastic is more valuable and rare than the standard 11x Champion IMO.
lux4prez
Mar 31 2010, 09:07 PM
I compared the dark blue one, a true 11x, and two(yellow and green) that I just got from a reputable trader. All had the same dome and lip. The true 11x was marked TB as well as the dark blue. The yellow and green were marked T. I'm not sure what gives, but if someone is restamping newer discs, I think we need to know. I still don't get the special blend part. The dark blue one I have is still clear unlike any special blend that I've seen. Are there some shenanigans going on here? Granted, there are newer disc that fly like older discs, but they should not be sold as the older originals. I got some last run CE TL's recently and they didn't seem quite right either. Can't put my finger on it, but something was different. They went "out of stock" after I cleaned them out. If they come back in stock, I will have to wonder.
lux4prez
Mar 31 2010, 09:10 PM
He says the marking underneath the disc is 'STB' for special blend, however he also says the 'S' was removed in order for these discs to be sold.
I don't get that? Why?
20460chase
Mar 31 2010, 11:42 PM
Chase,
weren't the "Special" 12X KC Teebirds you have labeled S-TB?
My money is that they're that plastic with the 11x Stamp.
Either way, that plastic is more valuable and rare than the standard 11x Champion IMO.
No. Neither are.
I have had 2 types of "special blend" Teebirds. The first, and by far the most rare, was an 11x KC with the circle stamp. This disc said TB or T on the back, no S. Ive only seen them in RED with BLUE stamps and most are in the 167-170g range. They usually go for between 35-50 bucks and this was 2 years ago. Havent seen any since I sold mine, which was 175g. The one I bought came from a guy in Carolina who told me they were made with the Tulsa Orc plastic, or some sort of special blend, and there wasnt many. They mainly went to team members, or so he said. My main intrestr in the disc was because I thought, or hoped, it was Night Shift plastic. It wasnt, but it wasnt Champion, and this was before Star plastic even existed. First step for these new ones, Id try to match one to the blue Tulsas.
The others are black. They are the CA. version, and they are 11x stamped, not 12x. The story I was told was that these were prototype plastic discs and only black and white were run. They were randomly mixed in with normal batches with the normal Champion/KC 11x stamp, not the KC circle. All Ive ever seen are gold stamped with silver sharpie on the back with "T", and all I got were bought from bigger distibutors who didnt even know what they were. They were stating in Ebay auctions that the discs were different, but there was no such thing as Star then, and few really knew about it. People on here, team members, Innova folk, yeah-general public, no. It was talked about in the Dave D thread and even Dave said ( if memory serves ) it was not decided that it would become a brand new line, just an addition to Champion. Later on it became Star. Im almost positve that I have had other discs from that same timeframe, Beasts I am almost sure of. Im also almost positive that I had a Champion Coyote as well. I sold it to a guy in town through Ebay, and Ill confirm with him about it. They all were black opaque as well, but had Red stamps, silver sharpie. There was also a big batch of smoke colored-black discs that came around the same time, and I bought several due to bad photos that made them look opaque. I still have some, but am not sure if they are on the site. I couldnt find photos the other day when I was asking about this in the Dave D thread.
It was after this, like the next spring that all the Special Blend stuff started showing up as CFRs. There was the mentioned RRs, Valks, pretty sure Vikings and maybe some other stuff. Pretty sure those were in limited colors as well, but not positive. I remember White, Black and Yellow and they being for a Cali tourney. Maybe there was other colors and those Teebirds online now came from there?
Then came Star plastic.
Here is my question: The black "T" proto/ whatever Teebirds have the Champion Teebird stamp on them, that says Ken Climo 11x Champion underneath. Why would these have that stamp and another special blend have different markings and a different stamp? I would think the ones I have would be more valuable as they should be older?
dickybird
Apr 01 2010, 12:08 AM
I've got some black and white TBs with the 2005 Southern California stamp on them. Some sidewinders came out at the same time with the same hotstamp. These were sold as special blend. Teebirds were marked STB and sidewinders SBSW. Do the TBs have any relevance to this discussion?
atreau3
Apr 01 2010, 12:15 AM
I just talked with a team member who has a white S-TB with black stamp, and a black S-TB with white stamp, that was given out as a team proto. This would have been around 2005 when he got them. Both are completely opaque. I'm trying to get these, and WHEN I do, I'll post pics.
E
lux4prez
Apr 01 2010, 12:24 AM
Are we still talking about the 11x ring stamped Teebirds in question? The one on Ebay? I have one just like it and it is NOT special blend anything. It is Champion plastic. Unless it is a new disc that someone has recently stamped with an old stamp, it shouldn't have STB on the back. It should have TB on the back. Am I missing something?
atreau3
Apr 01 2010, 07:45 AM
It definitely should have TB on the back...
I was thinking of other discs that were labeled STB to compare labels...
dgdave
Apr 01 2010, 09:24 AM
THe 1st run star TBs (or at least reds and whites) were marked S-TB and were very champy/star, special blendish.
Webslinger
Apr 01 2010, 10:09 AM
Well I do wonder about these 2 KC Pro Teebirds I have. Both look like the one that sold on ebay last night and both have what appears to be 'STB' on them, though the 'S' has been removed, you can easily see the impression it left behind on both discs.
20460chase
Apr 01 2010, 12:38 PM
I've got some black and white TBs with the 2005 Southern California stamp on them. Some sidewinders came out at the same time with the same hotstamp. These were sold as special blend. Teebirds were marked STB and sidewinders SBSW. Do the TBs have any relevance to this discussion?
These came out AFTER the ones I have. These are the ones I suspect was given the 11x KC stamp.
Either way, stamping a disc today with a supposed dead stamp is garbage, if that is what is going on.
Also, why would these get a KC stamp? It makes no sense at all.
20460chase
Apr 01 2010, 12:40 PM
I just talked with a team member who has a white S-TB with black stamp, and a black S-TB with white stamp, that was given out as a team proto. This would have been around 2005 when he got them. Both are completely opaque. I'm trying to get these, and WHEN I do, I'll post pics.
E
Again, I was told these are the only real star proto discs. Black and White, I was told, were the only colors made and were sent out to testers. The remaing discs were stamped with the Champion stamp and sent out.
atreau3
Apr 01 2010, 02:30 PM
So I just bought some more discs today...
Some of interest... Two "team" teebirds labeled "SB- T" denoting special blend teebirds. One is white with black stamp and the other is black with black stamp. Both stamps are mini swoosh stamps.
lux4prez
Apr 01 2010, 03:57 PM
Never mind. This is a quote from the "Ask Dave Dunipace" thread:
Yes, there was a small batch. It was part of a run where we used the stabilizing process and materials on TeeBirds. The ones I remember were blue.
I didn't include the question from Webslinger about the 11x Teebirds.
atreau3
Apr 01 2010, 09:55 PM
Greg... got the roc today.... Thank you!
flynvegas
Apr 02 2010, 01:31 PM
Thx for the Roc hook up Eric.
lux4prez
Apr 02 2010, 02:18 PM
Eric, did you pass on the Roc to Flyinvegas? Glad you liked it and thanks.
gippy
Apr 02 2010, 06:08 PM
I want Rocs you can pass em my way LOL
atreau3
Apr 03 2010, 09:44 AM
We are working on some old rocs...
I'm keeping that spectator! I like that simple stamp.
Dana
Apr 03 2010, 11:35 AM
Anyone have any of the Wraiths made out of the pre star/special blend plastic out there? I've seen a special blend/pre star dyed Augusta Wraith. Any idea on how many of those are out there?
PS- Just picked up one of those Teebirds (unfortunately its used) Chase is talking about, the Red KC Pro with the Blue stamp. That is some great plastic.
Webslinger
Apr 03 2010, 03:42 PM
Hey guys...I am curious about a Champion Beast I recently acquired and am hoping somebody can shed some light on it. I'm not saying it's a collector disc of any sort, but to me, it does seem a little unique.
I don't know much about the history of the Champion Beast. What I do see on ebay and at the online retailers are some differences though that I just became aware of.
My Champion Beast has the word 'BEAST' spelled out in capital letters. Does that indicate a certain run or year that it was produced? I do see some 'gummy', more clear Champion Beasts with the same capitalized 'BEAST', and others that are Champion 'Beast' (lower case) Barry Schultz 2003 PDGA World Champion fetching some pretty decent prices on ebay. Then of course, there are the Barry Schultz 2x Disc Golf World Champion that can be gotten anywhere for $15.00 or less. I seem to remember something being said about older Beast's having a different mold, or rim than the newer ones.
Any enlightening you could provide would be great.
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Gold%20Disc%20PIcs/th_0403001221.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Gold%20Disc%20PIcs/?action=view¤t=0403001221.jpg)
kwibby1
Apr 03 2010, 04:01 PM
Just got my 11x teebirds from discgolfvalues. All 5 were marked s-tb with the S removed.. too me they feel like a mix or "special blend" they look and feel like amazing old plastic to me, i really like em :)
RhynoBoy
Apr 03 2010, 05:17 PM
Anyone have any of the Wraiths made out of the pre star/special blend plastic out there?
Are you talking about the white ones that are still available through the CFR program? They are marked SBW. From what I understand, there are still some available through the program, but they may be out by now.
twig
Apr 04 2010, 06:03 AM
Pro Line (not Pro, like the Starfire, Wraith, Destroyer, etc.), Champion (blank) and Champion 1x (2003) are all basically the same disc, though I've heard there may be slight mold and plastic differences among them. IIRC, some of the earliest 2x Beasts may also use the old mold...otherwise, Pro, Star, and current Champion and DX are the newer (flippier, and depending on who you ask, lousier) mold.
Chronologically, at least regarding the Champion material Beasts, it goes Pro Line -> Champion -> 1x -> 2x. I haven't a clue as to run numbers or particular dates other than the 1x and 2x coming some time after those Worlds wins (how far after I dunno).
The mold was tweaked (now 10,5,-2,2) due to similarity to the Orc (10,4,-1,3). Beast aficionados will disagree on just how similar, but that does give you at least some idea of the flight difference from old mold to new. I'm no great player myself, and while I mainly prefer the old mold because, well, it's what I'm used to, most folks I know with a preference like the old ones too.
If you're in a Play It Again or other local disc store and get a current Beast (Champ or otherwise) in your hand, you'll notice the difference immediately. A subtle tweak it was not. :)
Hope this helps. More knowledgeable collectors could certainly give more detail, but this should give you the general idea.
Frank
Hey guys...I am curious about a Champion Beast I recently acquired and am hoping somebody can shed some light on it. I'm not saying it's a collector disc of any sort, but to me, it does seem a little unique.
I don't know much about the history of the Champion Beast. What I do see on ebay and at the online retailers are some differences though that I just became aware of.
My Champion Beast has the word 'BEAST' spelled out in capital letters. Does that indicate a certain run or year that it was produced? I do see some 'gummy', more clear Champion Beasts with the same capitalized 'BEAST', and others that are Champion 'Beast' (lower case) Barry Schultz 2003 PDGA World Champion fetching some pretty decent prices on ebay. Then of course, there are the Barry Schultz 2x Disc Golf World Champion that can be gotten anywhere for $15.00 or less. I seem to remember something being said about older Beast's having a different mold, or rim than the newer ones.
Any enlightening you could provide would be great.
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Gold%20Disc%20PIcs/th_0403001221.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Disc%20Gold%20Disc%20PIcs/?action=view¤t=0403001221.jpg)
Webslinger
Apr 04 2010, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your insight.
20460chase
Apr 05 2010, 11:15 AM
Thats when Beasts were still awesome. Now they suck.
Webslinger
Apr 05 2010, 09:16 PM
Thats when Beasts were still awesome. Now they suck.
Short and to the point! I like it.
gippy
Apr 06 2010, 08:11 AM
I have the old "Pro Line" Beast 1 Brand New unthrown and one 3 years beat. Also have one of the OM with a Sweet Zonedriven stamp on it. ANy one interasted?
dgdave
Apr 06 2010, 10:01 AM
Anyone want to pick up a SE Ron Russell Z comet from 03?
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/dgdave/rr.jpg
20460chase
Apr 09 2010, 12:13 PM
So a guy I know talked to Avery Jenkins a few days ago about the Cam Todd Teebirds, and Avery told him the opposite story he told me. Avery says they are hybrid 10x KC Teebirds, not technically CE. He told me the opposite story at Worlds in Michigan, but maybe there was some confusion as to what disc we were talking about. He sees alot of plastic, so its understandable. Obviously, there are several stories about these, seems like everyone has something different. The first time I ever saw one of these was in Jay Reddings bag. He told me then it was a CE T, but he also had a white one....with a red stamp, and still havent seen another of those. About a month ago I PMed Rick to ask him his thoughts on these being the same disc, but he couldnt do it as he has neither left. Its something I suspected for quite some time, to have Avery say it makes sense. This is the same as my Orange. The whites may have a different story to them.
20460chase
Apr 10 2010, 11:49 PM
Anyone got a guess on this one? Its a TL, but only has a T on the back and its in the inner circle.
gippy
Apr 11 2010, 05:58 PM
Anyone got a guess on this one? Its a TL, but only has a T on the back and its in the inner circle.
What are you looking to know? Most CE Teebirds where TLs and pretty sure they where all marked T. Only some where actual Teebirds and not TLs
RhynoBoy
Apr 11 2010, 11:01 PM
? Most CE Eagles where TLs and pretty sure they where all marked T.
This sentence does not make sense to me.
lux4prez
Apr 11 2010, 11:32 PM
Chase,
It looks like it has a nipple on top. Does it? If so, refer back to my Teebird post that's maybe two pages back by now. I've never been able to confirm one way or another as to the actual run of these, but these fell between the first and third runs of the CE Teebirds. If you compare the lip on these to a TL, they are close, but with a little more curve in them. It is somewhere between a TL and a T. If it doesn't have the nipple, I just had fun typing for no reason.
AirMcNair
Apr 11 2010, 11:55 PM
Look at this website. It may help a little.
http://www.discgolftrader.com/ce/ce_tb.htm
20460chase
Apr 12 2010, 11:04 AM
What are you looking to know? Most CE Eagles where TLs and pretty sure they where all marked T. Only some where actual Teebirds and not TLs
This is the only one I have marked with a T, and not a TL, that actually is a TL.
20460chase
Apr 12 2010, 11:06 AM
these fell between the first and second runs of the CE Teebirds. If you compare the lip on these to a TL, they are close, but with a little more curve in them.
Yep, Im pretty sure its one of those. Were they all white ? Wasnt there some dayglos that were from the same batch?
lux4prez
Apr 12 2010, 11:35 AM
I'm not sure of colors, but I've only seen blue,white, and orange ones. I have
one that's creamsicle colored with an orange center and white rim.
KBRISTOW
Apr 12 2010, 12:16 PM
I've got a max weight beast champion plasctic with a sick "KEEN Footwear" Stamp if anybody is interested. It's 1 of 25 and won it in a raffle and was told there rare stamps
warlocks00
Apr 12 2010, 01:56 PM
I'm looking for a 1st Run Surge.....anyone?
Preferred color would be black with a yellow stamp with the weight close to 171....but really any weight works as long as the color is right.
Lost mine this weekend at Manor, and really...really want to replace it(or get that one back).
gippy
Apr 12 2010, 04:29 PM
This sentence does not make sense to me.
No it didnt I edited it Looked up at my Eagle I was typing
20460chase
Apr 13 2010, 10:24 PM
Tonight I saw an 11x KC Cheetah that was in the same plastic as the 11x KC I have talked about. Red with Blue stamp. IT reminded me of something I forgot about. Besides being completely opaque, they are similar to 1st Run Vikings, with the record grooves. I forgot all about that until I saw the Cheetah. It was obviously different to anyone and everyone that looked at it.
May help someone to identify one in the future. BTW, the guy that got the Cheetah bought it out of a used bin in Iowa City for $10 the other day.
gippy
Apr 14 2010, 08:57 AM
I got my son a 154 11X KC Pro Cheetah pearly plastic almost opaque real flat Rainbow stamp. Thing is sweet. He is 9 and flicks it a smooth 100+ft got it used for $10
atreau3
Apr 15 2010, 09:03 AM
picked up a really nice dx scorpion this weekend...
green with a blue promotional flying eye stamp (with their phone #).
The disc also has a mini circle stock dx scorpion stamp on the bottom. Mint 182. Really like it... Thanks BOB!
atreau3
Apr 15 2010, 09:04 AM
Oh, and I just found a stash of those early pearly Champ Beasts and Orcs, if anyone is interested...
rizbee
Apr 15 2010, 02:45 PM
Oh, and I just found a stash of those early pearly Champ Beasts and Orcs, if anyone is interested...
If you have any that are very light in weight, I might be interested.
veganray
Apr 15 2010, 03:47 PM
I have two Champion Orcs (one pearly & one transparent) & one Champion Beast, all <154g. Two extremely gummy; one pretty darned gummy. Hit me up.
channelz
Apr 21 2010, 12:03 PM
Hi VR,
How about a trade? My trades are here....
www.discgolfflymart.com
I have two Champion Orcs (one pearly & one transparent) & one Champion Beast, all <154g. Two extremely gummy; one pretty darned gummy. Hit me up.
lux4prez
Apr 21 2010, 11:54 PM
I just hooked up with a stack of the last original Ching stamped Rocs. They were for the 2004 Hotlanta tournament. 20 were made, 2 were sold in '04(1 to me), and the rest were stashed for some reason until now. Super flat tops on them and killer stamp. The weights are 175 and 176g.$20 each and will get a picture up tomorrow.
lux4prez
Apr 22 2010, 08:37 PM
Here's a pic:
Fossil
Apr 23 2010, 03:15 PM
Dug these out of my collection, I've had all of them since first produced.
Do you think that the Japan Open players would be interested? The Valkyries are that sweet gummy plastic and more transparent than the picture shows.
I'll Auction the Orange Valkyrie and the 158.66 Eagle beginning Monday April 26th at 8:30 eastern.
http://lakefrontdiscgolf.com/Lakefront%20DGC%20Root%20Folder/Images/MiscImages/CE_Group_1.jpg
gippy
Apr 23 2010, 04:15 PM
Id hang on to those if I where you for a while longer. Wish I could buy em from you but cant afford it right now. Hang on to them til the market gets better for selling collectors JMO.
Fossil
Apr 23 2010, 06:41 PM
I do have a few more for my use or future sales, but thought I'd see if those players going to Japan might show significant interest. I only scheduled two of those pictured to test the market.
When do you think the collecting market will improve?
20460chase
Apr 24 2010, 07:56 PM
It will keep improving. I think if your looking at Ebay, it wont be Japan Open players buying them, it will be collectors. Anyone willing to spend what those are worth would be stupid to take them to play with, in my opinion.
Those are sweet , lightweight collectors. They are all mid level collectors, for even the most stingy collector, great starters to a new collector. You may not pull as much as a heavyweight version, but I think they look great and will do well.
Is it me or does some of the sickest looking plastic seem to be in lighter weights?
vadiscgolf
Apr 26 2010, 11:22 AM
So is the JK Aviar with the choice of champions stamp a first run, proto, or special edition? I just got one almost new at 174g and it is money.
johnbiscoe
Apr 26 2010, 11:32 AM
proto- called the aviar-x at the time.
veganray
Apr 26 2010, 11:33 AM
I have three of those for sale. All 175g. Hit me up.
RhynoBoy
Apr 26 2010, 11:33 AM
So is the JK Aviar with the choice of champions stamp a first run, proto, or special edition? I just got one almost new at 174g and it is money.
They're referred to as Proto, but I believe they are just "first run." Not 100% on that, but people say Innova has only released a couple true "proto" runs, and the other "Protos" are First Runs. That would be my guess. They do feel a bit SE-ish though...
RhynoBoy
Apr 26 2010, 11:34 AM
I have three of those for sale. All 175g. Hit me up.
This ain't Traders Row! ;)
dobbins66
Apr 26 2010, 11:42 AM
Tonight I saw an 11x KC Cheetah that was in the same plastic as the 11x KC I have talked about. Red with Blue stamp. IT reminded me of something I forgot about. Besides being completely opaque, they are similar to 1st Run Vikings, with the record grooves. I forgot all about that until I saw the Cheetah. It was obviously different to anyone and everyone that looked at it..
I have a New 11x KC Cheetah that's also completely opaque - Bright yellow at 175g. One of only two heavy totally opaque 11x that I have had.
vadiscgolf
Apr 26 2010, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the responses, so if I did want more, whats the current price on these? Not ebay asking prices.
veganray
Apr 26 2010, 12:35 PM
Unthrown, uninked, max weight: $35-40.
veganray
Apr 27 2010, 02:50 PM
The highlights of a few goodies I unearthed last night:
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/blaxx.jpg
Top row (L-R): Phenix, Classic Roc, Stingray, Gazelle, Cobra
Second row: Pegasus, Pegasus, Pegasus, Aero, Lynx
Third row: Cheetah, Stingray, Stingray, Python, Barracuda
Fourth row: Shark, Shark, Viper, Moray, Moray
Fifth Row: Birdie, Birdie, Birdie, Birdie, Scorpion (all old mold Birdies)
Sixth row: Raven, Hammer, Roc, XD, Scorpion
sandalbagger
Apr 27 2010, 04:21 PM
How much for the black hammer? Got tons of Vibram discs for trade.
I have one, but mine has a red stamp, I really like the blue stamps.
veganray
Apr 27 2010, 04:35 PM
I like supersoft (tortilla-style) Ridges. PM me.
DOC65
Apr 28 2010, 12:26 AM
I have a pink colored Birdie with the Champion Star stamp similar to the 2nd from the right in your pic. Any idea what it's worth?
The highlights of a few goodies I unearthed last night:
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/blaxx.jpg
Top row (L-R): Phenix, Classic Roc, Stingray, Gazelle, Cobra
Second row: Pegasus, Pegasus, Pegasus, Aero, Lynx
Third row: Cheetah, Stingray, Stingray, Python, Barracuda
Fourth row: Shark, Shark, Viper, Moray, Moray
Fifth Row: Birdie, Birdie, Birdie, Birdie, Scorpion (all old mold Birdies)
Sixth row: Raven, Hammer, Roc, XD, Scorpion
veganray
Apr 28 2010, 11:21 AM
Nope, but I should soon. As soon as I catalog a few more boxes, I will have a blowout & see what mine go for.
DSproAVIAR
Apr 28 2010, 01:51 PM
Do those 2 stock-stamp birdies have the tiny easter egg 420 in one of the laces?
veganray
Apr 28 2010, 01:52 PM
I know not that easter egg. Where do I look? Got a pic?
lux4prez
Apr 28 2010, 08:24 PM
Ray,
Having problems pm'ing. I want the Birdies, Aero, and Lynx. Shoot me a price please. Thank you.
RhynoBoy
May 03 2010, 12:20 PM
Here are some rare birds from my collection I thought I'd share.
Clockwise from the top left, '01 Clear Roc, '01 Maceman Red Roc, '01 Yellow Zonedriven Ghost Stamp Roc, and another '01 Clear Roc
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5657/dsc00429ry.jpg
20460chase
May 03 2010, 02:18 PM
Sickness.
twoputtok
May 04 2010, 12:29 PM
About 2k in plastic.
20460chase
May 04 2010, 02:18 PM
Id say thats a low estimate, but thats my opinion.
rickb
May 05 2010, 11:18 AM
About 2k in plastic.
More like 4.5k in plastic.
Conserative values in the current market.
01 clears $1000 ea.
Red Maceman $1500
Ghost stamp green Zonedriven $1000
estimated value in a couple of years when the overall economy picks up - closer to 6k
20460chase
May 05 2010, 02:15 PM
More like 4.5k in plastic.
Conserative values in the current market.
01 clears $1000 ea.
Red Maceman $1500
Ghost stamp green Zonedriven $1000
estimated value in a couple of years when the overall economy picks up - closer to 6k
Word.
RhynoBoy
May 05 2010, 02:58 PM
About 2k in plastic.
I wish that was all that I had in them! :)
markpeterson
May 05 2010, 08:25 PM
Would you care to reveal what you did sink into them? And where you got them,you wouldn't offend if you said no.
lux4prez
May 05 2010, 10:05 PM
...and can we get your social security number?
RhynoBoy
May 06 2010, 11:34 AM
Would you care to reveal what you did sink into them? And where you got them,you wouldn't offend if you said no.
I suppose I would care. I might still try and make some deals from the person(s) I got these from. :D
quickdisc
May 06 2010, 07:46 PM
Here are some rare birds from my collection I thought I'd share.
Clockwise from the top left, '01 Clear Roc, '01 Maceman Red Roc, '01 Yellow Zonedriven Ghost Stamp Roc, and another '01 Clear Roc
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5657/dsc00429ry.jpg
Those are Sweet !!!
channelz
May 28 2010, 12:20 AM
Just listed a 162 gram CE Firebird in almost mint condition. It's only flaw is a 4 digit PDGA number in small sharpie on the inside rim....
http://cgi.ebay.com/MINT-Champion-Edition-FIREBIRD-Golf-Disc-162-CHANNEL-Z-/380237665418?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5887ee548a
Also have some cool collectables in my store...
http://www.discgolfflymart.com/classicplastic.html
z
warlocks00
May 28 2010, 12:59 PM
I had a guy come into my store this morning with an unthrown, uninked CE Teebird that he thinks might be a 1st run. It's orange with a sparkle stamp on it and is a 172. The stamp says Champion Edition across the top arced, with the star under it, then Teebird ultra long range driver. There is a space then it has an innova logo with a disc in the letters, inside the disc it says disc golf. then has the PDGA Approved . and the website.
Anybody know how to tell for sure if it is a 1st run, would a picture of it help?
If it is a 1st run, what would it be worth?
If it's not a 1st run what would it be worth?
Thanks for any help!
gippy
May 28 2010, 01:52 PM
A Picture would help and to know if it is a T or TL most CE Teebirds are TLs. How to tell is if it has the nose bead or not. Orange Doesn't sound like a 1st Run color to me.
Any one else?
dgdave
May 28 2010, 01:58 PM
Not a 1st run. Those are red. I'd guess its worth 60ish
warlocks00
May 28 2010, 03:00 PM
Thanks guys, I kind of questioned the 1st run part myself, but I am no expert. This one is orange, with a goldish glitter stamp.
From feeling the rim, and comparing it to current TL and Teebirds in my shop I'd say it is a T not a TL. I'll try to get some pics up later today though to see what you guys think.
lux4prez
May 29 2010, 09:11 AM
Does it have a "birthmark " on the top in the center about the size of a pencil eraser?
gippy
May 29 2010, 03:50 PM
Not a 1st run. Those are red. I'd guess its worth 60ish
The 1st Runs with stock stamp where Red than there was the Blueberry Zonedrivens
If this one is a T not a TL I'd say more towards the $75-$100 as they didn't make but a few real Ts exact ## no clue or even a guess but I know Rarer
quickdisc
May 29 2010, 04:55 PM
I like These !!!!
First Run Red CE Candy TeeBirds !!!
rickb
May 30 2010, 01:51 AM
The 1st Runs with stock stamp where Red than there was the Blueberry Zonedrivens
If this one is a T not a TL I'd say more towards the $75-$100 as they didn't make but a few real Ts exact ## no clue or even a guess but I know Rarer
Not sure if Gippy is getting his molds confused but blueberry Zonedrivens are Valkyries.
As for runs, the 1st and 2nd runs were TL's. The following runs were the T mold.
And unless someone from Innova did something different and it was never leaked, 1st runs should be all red. The stamp color doesn't matter.
channelz
May 30 2010, 02:13 PM
I got a 1st Run CE Leopard up for grabs...
http://www.discgolfflymart.com/innova-1st-run-champion-edition-leopard-165-golf-disc1165.html
PBeagle
May 30 2010, 10:00 PM
I have a Crystal Clear First Run Boss w/ a Rainbow stamp, any one have an idea what it may be worth (rarity) or even if i should keep it on the wall, or throw it?
gippy
May 30 2010, 11:14 PM
Ya Im dumb shouldn't post on an hour sleep Thinking Val and we are talking Teebirds LOL
gippy
May 30 2010, 11:16 PM
I have a Crystal Clear First Run Boss w/ a Rainbow stamp, any one have an idea what it may be worth (rarity) or even if i should keep it on the wall, or throw it?
Throw it
PBeagle
May 31 2010, 12:38 AM
Throw it
Tempting, but i have a Merlot First Run that I use and its hard to throw a clear boss here... I have seen that Dynamic Discs has one that has a black stamp on ebay for 99.99 or 129.99 (for buy now), so with the stamp it makes me wonder.... I mean CE plastic was a thrower back then but now it is worth some dough....
dgdave
May 31 2010, 09:04 AM
1st run Bosses have been going for 30-60. I'd guess in the higher end of that.
20460chase
May 31 2010, 03:02 PM
I wouldnt throw it. I would sell it.
warlocks00
Jun 01 2010, 07:25 PM
I'll try to get some pics up later today though to see what you guys think.
Here are the pics....let's see if this works!
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f368/warlocks00/CEteebird001.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f368/warlocks00/CEteebird002.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f368/warlocks00/CEteebird003.jpg
lux4prez
Jun 02 2010, 08:02 AM
That's a 5th run. Next to last run, which were the clear ones. See the birthmark in the middle? That's on every one of these for some reason, but not on any of the other runs.
twoputtok
Jun 02 2010, 09:46 AM
I have two first run (true Blueberry ) Bosses. One with a rinbow stamp the other with a gold stamp. The gold on the blue looks awsome. Anyone interested?
20460chase
Jun 02 2010, 02:57 PM
For trade or sale? I may be for trade, otherwise youd probably do better on Ebay. They seem to do well. Just saying.
twoputtok
Jun 02 2010, 04:00 PM
I'd like cash. I have/had an extensive collection of Inncolors, Rocs, 1st runs and other discs. have been letting them go slowly. Just been too lazy to list them on Ebay. These are sweet, I'd take $50 each, shipping included.
I'll put some pics up if asked, otherwise, like I said I'm too lazy.
20460chase
Jun 02 2010, 06:08 PM
Pm sent.
gippy
Jun 02 2010, 06:40 PM
I'd like cash. I have/had an extensive collection of Inncolors, Rocs, 1st runs and other discs. have been letting them go slowly. Just been too lazy to list them on Ebay. These are sweet, I'd take $50 each, shipping included.
I'll put some pics up if asked, otherwise, like I said I'm too lazy.
Do you have any 1st Run Pro Aviars? and or 11X, 10X KC Aviars?
twoputtok
Jun 03 2010, 05:20 PM
Will have to check. don't think so. Have some 4x and 5x
warlocks00
Jun 03 2010, 05:43 PM
That's a 5th run. Next to last run, which were the clear ones. See the birthmark in the middle? That's on every one of these for some reason, but not on any of the other runs.
Thanks for the info on this disc. I'll know to watch for the "birth mark" from now on.
So now knowing it's a 5th run vs. a possible 1st run. How much do you guys think it is worth? That way I can tell the guy he's probably not going to get $100 for it like he asked.
Again thanks for the help with this, CE stuff was all but gone when I started playing(mid to late 2004) and was for sure gone when I started selling discs out of my flag shop(2005). So I don't know much about that plastic....other than it's old and possible worth some $$.
warlocks00
Jun 03 2010, 05:48 PM
On a different note, I do have about 6 1st run Bosses I pulled off the shelf once the production stamps started coming in....if anyone is interested!
More looking to sell than trade, but if there is a 1st run Black with yellow stamped Surge out there I'd trade for that!
20460chase
Jun 03 2010, 10:12 PM
He could probably get between 40-60$ for it on Ebay. Thats a guess.
warlocks00
Jun 04 2010, 10:08 AM
He could probably get between 40-60$ for it on Ebay. Thats a guess.
Funny....even with as little as I know about CE stuff, when he brought it in that is exactly what I told him I thought it would be worth. THANKS.
Martin_Bohn
Jun 04 2010, 11:24 AM
Funny....even with as little as I know about CE stuff, when he brought it in that is exactly what I told him I thought it would be worth. THANKS.
closer to 60. theres been a drop in ce plastic being posted on ebay this last year. and what you do see is used. most likely the trend for new ce posted on ebay will be less and less as time goes by.... :(
20460chase
Jun 04 2010, 02:37 PM
I would agree 100%. Id actually say maybe 60-80$ on the high side. I didnt realize it was unthrown. Good condition used Teebirds have been going for $40 all day, most more.
warlocks00
Jun 04 2010, 05:23 PM
He's pretty stuck on the $100 mark...so I called and told him he needed to come pick it up and put it back in the closet for a couple of years since he's not willing to budge.
Thanks again for the help guys!
flickshot
Jun 05 2010, 12:36 AM
Really need to get rid of these CE Valkyries. Gotta have some money
First Run CE Valkyrie 9.5/10 Red 172g Make me a reasonable offer, I may accept it, I will go low
CE Valkyrie 8/10 Green 172g $32 shipped
Honor Guard
Jun 05 2010, 11:37 AM
Really need to get rid of these CE Valkyries. Gotta have some money
First Run CE Valkyrie 9.5/10 Red 172g Make me a reasonable offer, I may accept it, I will go low
CE Valkyrie 8/10 Green 172g $32 shipped
pictures? i may be interested.
tkieffer
Jun 05 2010, 12:25 PM
Do you have any 1st Run Pro Aviars? and or 11X, 10X KC Aviars?
I have a first run Pro Aviar. White, 172gm, a bit of field throwing in it, no ink.
gippy
Jun 07 2010, 11:10 PM
He's pretty stuck on the $100 mark...so I called and told him he needed to come pick it up and put it back in the closet for a couple of years since he's not willing to budge.
Thanks again for the help guys!
Thats what Im doing with my New unthrown CE stuff along with the 8X Proto Rocs and 10X Rocs
flynvegas
Jun 21 2010, 11:20 AM
Looking for DGA Kitty Hawks and Destiny Rock N Roller.
vadiscgolf
Jun 21 2010, 06:44 PM
I think people should sell all the ce they have now before it becomes worth less as better discs and plastic evolves. As the old generation moves on and eventually stops playing, I think less people will care for ce, besides champion pro line and champion kc pro is the longest lasting plastic that keeps the original flight pattern the longest. Keep those and sell the ce before the market diminishes.
gippy
Jun 22 2010, 09:34 AM
I think people should sell all the ce they have now before it becomes worth less as better discs and plastic evolves. As the old generation moves on and eventually stops playing, I think less people will care for ce, besides champion pro line and champion kc pro is the longest lasting plastic that keeps the original flight pattern the longest. Keep those and sell the ce before the market diminishes.
CE keeps the original flight pattern real good too. I have a CE Eagle been in the bag for 10 years as my goto disc and it is still stable to this day. If CE diminishes then I will just have to put them in the Bag for now It will stay on the wall. I feel it is the best plastic to date JMO.
20460chase
Jun 22 2010, 10:27 AM
I think people should sell all the ce they have now before it becomes worth less as better discs and plastic evolves. As the old generation moves on and eventually stops playing, I think less people will care for ce, besides champion pro line and champion kc pro is the longest lasting plastic that keeps the original flight pattern the longest. Keep those and sell the ce before the market diminishes.
Good plan. Ill buy yours. Send me a PM with a list and prices.
20460chase
Jun 22 2010, 10:29 AM
CE keeps the original flight pattern real good too. I have a CE Eagle been in the bag for 10 years as my goto disc and it is still stable to this day. If CE diminishes then I will just have to put them in the Bag for now It will stay on the wall. I feel it is the best plastic to date JMO.
I agree. CE plastic has the longest lifespan.
gippy
Jun 22 2010, 10:15 PM
Good plan. Ill buy yours. Send me a PM with a list and prices.
I'll 2nd this A list would be great. Chase not trying to sneak in on your deal just would like some more.
lux4prez
Jun 22 2010, 11:52 PM
I think the reason Innova discontinued CE plastic is because it didn't generate repeat sales. KC and Pro stuff beat in quick, but CE stuff lasts forever. I have an Eagle just like gippy that I've had since they came out and it's as true as the day I got it. Is yours a 2nd run dayglo yellow? Either way, unless you lost CE plastic, you never had to buy another one. Contrary to vadiscgolf, I don't think there will ever be a better plastic than CE. I'm kinda sure he was joking, but you never can tell.
Breeze
Jun 23 2010, 08:44 AM
I think the reason Innova discontinued CE plastic is because it didn't generate repeat sales.
From my understanding the reason the quit making CE had a lot to do with production. They had to produce them one at a time and they all had to be hand trimmed. When they upgraded the production machines to press 6 at a time the CE blend never worked. It had too high of a fail rate so they had to change blends.
-Chris
rickb
Jun 23 2010, 10:39 AM
The reason CE plastic is no more is due to the supplier of the plastic running out of the material. This has been asked and answered by Dave numerous times over the years on the "ask Dave" thread. So why not just recreate the formula?? Innova has tried even going to different suppliers but to no avail. The closest they have come is what we currently have. Starting with the Pro Line through the current Champion Line.
And anyone thinking CE will lose it's value is correct. Being the nice guy I am I am willing to help you unload your worthless stash imediately. At discounted prices of course. Do it now before it's too late and you get stuck.
prospect
Jun 24 2010, 07:33 PM
I think the reason Innova discontinued CE plastic is because it didn't generate repeat sales. KC and Pro stuff beat in quick, but CE stuff lasts forever. I have an Eagle just like gippy that I've had since they came out and it's as true as the day I got it. Is yours a 2nd run dayglo yellow? Either way, unless you lost CE plastic, you never had to buy another one. Contrary to vadiscgolf, I don't think there will ever be a better plastic than CE. I'm kinda sure he was joking, but you never can tell.
So, considering they last forever, do I risk throwing them, and losing them, or do I put them on the wall? If Ce plastic gives me career length durability, wouldn't I save more money than it's worth hanging on the wall by throwing it? Even if I lose my $100 Teebird 5 years down the road, won't I still save the money I would have spent on numerous replacements for beat discs? This also makes me wonder if I will even be able to replace said Teebird in 5 years, whether I need to or not. Something tells me they will be unobtainable, or at the very least, the price of a decent used car. I can't ride a Teebird to work...
dehaas
Jun 26 2010, 01:23 PM
This is probably an easy question, but where do the 0x kc pro rocs fit in timewise with the 11x and 12x rocs? Is there any collectible value to them, or are they fairly common?
Also how do the stabilities compare between roc molds...ontario, rancho, and san marino?
I've been throwing the buzz as a midrange and am just wanting to learn a little about the roc.
20460chase
Jun 28 2010, 06:59 PM
I can't ride a Teebird to work...
I can.
20460chase
Jun 28 2010, 07:04 PM
Does anyone know or have any pictures of a possible WHITE 1st Run CE Firebird? I have heard about them, but have never seen them before. This weekend I may have. A friend picked up a CE FL from a local chucker, and I was pretty impressed by it.
Super flat, with chunky flashing and a pastel rainbow stamp, one I have seen only a few times before. I suspect it may be one of the later taffy runs, but I dont remember them having so much flashing and have long sold mine. Im working on getting a photo of it from him.
Martin_Bohn
Jun 29 2010, 11:16 AM
Does anyone know or have any pictures of a possible WHITE 1st Run CE Firebird? I have heard about them, but have never seen them before. This weekend I may have. A friend picked up a CE FL from a local chucker, and I was pretty impressed by it.
Super flat, with chunky flashing and a pastel rainbow stamp, one I have seen only a few times before. I suspect it may be one of the later taffy runs, but I dont remember them having so much flashing and have long sold mine. Im working on getting a photo of it from him.
there were white ones from the start of the second run that had "fl" on the outside of the ring on the center bottom of the disc. some may say this is a first run but its not. during the second run innova started putting the "fl" inside the little ring with the weight on the bottom of the disc. (and all runs thereafter),i have one of these with the "fl" on the outside of the ring but its a second run. its opaque, super flat with flashing like you describe, but i think with a black stamp.
20460chase
Jun 29 2010, 02:20 PM
Yeah, thats what I thought as well. This just had an F outside the circle.
Martin_Bohn
Jun 29 2010, 05:16 PM
thats right just an "F". and then i think they went to an "FX".
thanks for correcting me.
atreau3
Jun 30 2010, 07:34 AM
thats right just an "F". and then i think they went to an "FX".
thanks for correcting me.
I just looked at my taffy white "FL" marked F last night... exact same plastic as you describe, with a rainbow stamp.
Chase... Nate gobbled up three of my 2nd/3rd run FL's last night. Next time he's up your way, ask him to bring them, really bright colors.
atreau3
Jun 30 2010, 07:35 AM
Looking for a used 01 again to throw... anyone?
Dana
Jul 01 2010, 11:13 AM
Any idea on the value of a GOLD Special Blend 2006 Hole 7 USDGC Roc? I've seen the blue and red special blends, but not gold..
Thanks
Furthur
Jul 01 2010, 11:30 AM
Gold is the 2nd rarest of the colors (behind pink) for that stamp. I've never seen that stamp sell for much, however. I'd be interested too, because I have a pink one.
RhynoBoy
Jul 03 2010, 11:43 PM
Okay, this pertains to the talk of CE plastic, and different runs.
I think there is a bit more out there in the early runs than what people think. According to some, (very reliable and knowledgeable sources) 1st run Valks were mostly Red, very few blue, and at least 1 white. I really think that there have to be a few other colors out there, and people just don't think they're legit, or pass them off as early second run.
I've seen a PURPLE 1st run Valkyrie. It meets all the tell-tale signs of what is common to first run plastic, and STILL HAS THE STICKER on the back of the disc that reads, "1st Run CE Valkyrie"
It's a REALLY sweet disc, maybe some day I'll post pictures when I can convince the original owner to sell it.
rickb
Jul 05 2010, 01:15 PM
1st run CE Valkyries...red, blue and there were 4 off color transitional discs that were given to Chris Himing. White, greyish, purpleish and I forget the last color. These 4 sat around the shop for at least 2 years in a drawer waiting for him to pick them up. They were stamped with the stock stamp. Not sure about the stickers though. The greyish one he sold on Ebay a few years back didn't have the sticker.
The transitional colors came from switching the red to blue. Same thing happened with the 01 Rocs which is why there's a few ot the orange ones. Once again Chris himing ended up with those with the lone exception being the Halloween stamp.
Not sure if it was this thread or another but I think we covered these few anomilies.
20460chase
Jul 05 2010, 05:40 PM
What about Leopards and TLs then? Ive seen many that are identical to the reds but are blueish-blueberry and purple. I was always told they were transitional colors, and were firsts, but have also read/been told those were third and fourth runs. The plastic isnt third or fourth run though, nor are the markings. Im not doubting anyone, but in the case of those mentioned above it would be nice for some insight.
RhynoBoy
Jul 05 2010, 09:44 PM
1st run CE Valkyries...red, blue and there were 4 off color transitional discs that were given to Chris Himing. White, greyish, purpleish and I forget the last color. These 4 sat around the shop for at least 2 years in a drawer waiting for him to pick them up.
See this is why I think there have to be a few others than thought out there. The purple one I'm talking about is custom stamped. It was shipped along with the other first run discs, and I know this because I know the vendor which it came through. No doubt it's not a first run once you've seen it and held it.
It was originally said there were only ~40 '01 Clear rocs, and now there are (or should be, once they update it) 50 on the Zonedriven Registry. There's got to be a few more rare ones out there is all I'm saying.
Martin_Bohn
Jul 06 2010, 10:44 AM
you know, those crazy night shift guys...... :) i dont think anyone ever knew what they were up to.
rhett
Jul 06 2010, 11:02 AM
...and STILL HAS THE STICKER on the back of the disc that reads, "1st Run CE Valkyrie".
I don't think that sticker means anything because I have and have had some genuine 1st run Valks straight from the source at Innova West and none of them had a sticker. (I know they're legit because there was no 2nd runs at the time. :) )
I'm guessing someone who could've been anyone put those stickers on after they left the factory.
rhett
Jul 06 2010, 11:04 AM
Looking for a used 01 again to throw... anyone?
What's the fair-market value on one of those and what are you offering?
Dana
Jul 06 2010, 11:37 AM
"Cream Dream" 9x and 10x Aviars, any idea on what they are worth? Are they worth more than their normal 9x and 10x counterparts?
flynvegas
Jul 06 2010, 12:29 PM
The "Cream Dream" Aviar's I know of were beadless and made in the mid 80's, well before the KC release. Are you sure these are not just blanks?
I have bought several Cream Dreams for about $50 a piece.
atreau3
Jul 06 2010, 01:46 PM
Rhett,
For some reason, I can't PM... A used 01 typically goes from $110- $180 on ebay, depending on condition, weight, ink, stamp in that order. please pm me, as I'm looking to get multiples if possible.
rickb
Jul 07 2010, 10:13 AM
See this is why I think there have to be a few others than thought out there. The purple one I'm talking about is custom stamped. It was shipped along with the other first run discs, and I know this because I know the vendor which it came through. No doubt it's not a first run once you've seen it and held it.
It was originally said there were only ~40 '01 Clear rocs, and now there are (or should be, once they update it) 50 on the Zonedriven Registry. There's got to be a few more rare ones out there is all I'm saying.
I'll start with the 01 ROCS. There were 40 in the original case. I was lucky enough to be at Renny that Thursday afternoon when they were hand delivered to Billy Crump. We counted them along with the other inventory to help verify the packing list. Paul Piper, Joe Szzafran, Kyle Maute, David Bundy and myself were the ones doing the counting. As far as the "registry" is concerned, I truly believe that there are folks out there who say they have one when they don't. 40 in the original case, the last 10 set aside at the east coast factory make 50 total. Yet there are 3 that have been lost and 1 that was stolen out of Kevin Gleasons bag. I know this for a fact. And there are a number of them that were thrown, yet most listed state Mint condition. And most registered don't have pictures verifying that they even have them.
As for CE plastic, yes there is a possibility that there were a few more transitional colors out there for the Valks. As for the other molds, Dave himself has stated just red. There is no real way to tell though as no one from Innova kept official records on what was produced, in what quantity, in what colors and so on. I will tell you this. In the early days of CE, most of the 1 off's and rare stuff never made it the general public. It was more of a "good ol boy" network with a few individuals with Innova connections that got the really good stuff. It sucks but that's the way it was. This is the reason there were 01 Maceman ROCS and there were 2 Disclanding 01 ROCS. At the time we were the major sponors for the USDGC and this was a little reward for that. Another example would be 03 ROCS, I had got in touch with my connections before they were released and had them set a number of the clears off to the side. I wasn't the only one who worked out a deal like this and thus, the clears never made it out in the regular shipments as they were snapped up.
My point is this. It's cool thinking that somewhere out there is an off color, 1 of, rare CE disc. Kind of like a Bugatti barn find in the automotive world. The difference being that there are alot of folks that like to claim they have rare CE discs. They got it from a dealer who got it when he got his shipment of 1st run CE and it was in the case also. They got it from a local pro who swears it's legit. They got it off of Ebay and it said in the desription. Until there is a verification process similar to ball cards and comic books, then we may never know for sure what is what. Way to much exagerating in the disc golf collectors market and not enough authenticating.
rickb
Jul 07 2010, 10:15 AM
you know, those crazy night shift guys...... :) i dont think anyone ever knew what they were up to.
No night shift crew in the early days of CE. That came later when the demand for discs increased.
rickb
Jul 07 2010, 10:28 AM
And to clarify something from 2 post before for the ROC collectors. Innova no longer allows the good ol boy way of doin things. They stopped that after 2004 and now everyone has to wait in line and everyone has the same chances of getting the good stuff. They also started the collectors guide so folks knew exactly what was out there. Wish they started this in 2000/2001 with the introduction of CE but at the time there was no CE collectors market.
20460chase
Jul 07 2010, 11:15 AM
How many of the standard 1st Run CE Rocs were made?
atreau3
Jul 07 2010, 11:16 AM
Speaking of disclanding... I noticed that I have a creamy white CE Valk with a white disclanding stamp, no stock stamp... is this rare?
atreau3
Jul 07 2010, 11:16 AM
The plastic is identical to the creamy white CE Valk with Stock stamp...
Furthur
Jul 07 2010, 11:44 AM
How many of the standard 1st Run CE Rocs were made?
According to http://www.ChampionRoc.com, there were 1555 made in yellow with the "standard" oval stamp.
RhynoBoy
Jul 07 2010, 01:30 PM
Thanks Rick, I always find your insights interesting and full of information.
I've always heard there were 1555 of the Yellow '01 rocs too.
rickb
Jul 07 2010, 07:17 PM
Speaking of disclanding... I noticed that I have a creamy white CE Valk with a white disclanding stamp, no stock stamp... is this rare?
White with white stamp? Is it the Disclanding bar logo or the DL logo? Regardless we usually had about 25 of any mold done with the bar logo and 25 with the DL logo. If I remember correctly there were CE Gazelles, Valkyries, Leopards, Teebirds, Aeros, Rhynos, Sharks, Archangels along with first run QMS's and 1st run CE/Q Omegas. Don't recall any Eagles or Firebirds for whatever reason.
Same disc and stamp color was something done rarely along with a few ghost stamps.
All of the clear CE plastic was done with ghost stamps.
atreau3
Jul 08 2010, 07:56 AM
I'll take a pic and post it...
dehaas
Jul 08 2010, 11:58 AM
I know this has probably been asked many times before, but when was CE discontinued? I started playing in 2001-2002 and remembered being able to buy it in stores still, but at the time I preferred the 10x and SE plastics because they had a better grip to me. One of the first expensive discs I bought was a CFR TL with a 2003 mile high disc golf club stamp on it...bought it to replace my beloved 10x teebird that I had just lost. A buddy of mine talked up the TL and this one was a lot more stable than my 10x and I never threw it much. I've got one of the bluish green CE TL's from the final run, and this mystery 2003 CFR TL is orange, and not quite as stiff, but more stiff than an orange CFR TL I bought a few months ago. So long story short is there any chance this 2003 stamped disc could be CE, or does the timeframe not match?
I also ran across a gummy blue champion leopard in the 150's that had the pro leopard stamp on it. Is it fairly common to see discs that are mis stamped?
flynvegas
Jul 08 2010, 12:30 PM
White with white stamp?
Same disc and stamp color was something done rarely .
I have a Midnight Flyer with a white #7 stamp, very cool and rare. I'd like to pick up one of the rarer "Shadow Stamp" Midnight Flyers.
atreau3
Jul 08 2010, 12:44 PM
Here is the pic of a similar stamp...
Will try to get a pic when I get home.
keithjohnson
Jul 08 2010, 01:08 PM
I also ran across a gummy blue champion leopard in the 150's that had the pro leopard stamp on it. Is it fairly common to see discs that are mis stamped?
Original Pro line plastic was what is now consider Champion plastic - so the stamp is correct - there were several models with the "pro line" stamp.
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